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	<title>Comments on: Is all religion moronic?</title>
	<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/</link>
	<description>Ugo Cei's Weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Logan</title>
		<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-60922</link>
		<dc:creator>Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-60922</guid>
		<description>I'm going to have to differ with you on this one.  I would have to say that, by and large, most people haven't thought in depth about the other viewpoint:  atheists don't really understand religion, and religious people don't really understand atheism.  Maybe this shouldn't be that surprising, since most people's views seem very obvious to them, and they don't think it's worth the time to investigate.

I myself have had the opportunity to look at both sides pretty thoroughly, though, since up until my early 30's, I was a fairly devout Christian.  I was never the type, though, to accept things without question, so I have a few shelves of books on the subject of theology.  These days, however, I've decided Christianity is probably not factual, and I'm an agnostic with a definite leaning towards atheism.

But, I still don't think theology is stupid.  (Note that I'm not saying there aren't lots of religious people with ideas that are just indescribably stupid.  But then there are a lot of people who are convinced they've found a perpetual motion machine as well, and who use lots of sciency jargon, which doesn't make science wrong.)

Anyway, my experience with theology is that when you sift the wheat from the chaff, there is actually some good thinking out there.  There is even some good philosophy.  I challenge anyone who thinks there is nothing to theology to read and really try to understand Martin Buber's "I and Thou".  It really gets to the heart of the axioms behind Christianity.  Well, not actually Christianity specifically since Buber was Jew if I recall correctly, but maybe Christianity too since they're related.

And that's what it boils down to in my opinion:  axioms.  Some people take it as axiomatic that God created the universe, that every event from start to finish has a purpose, and so on.  These people are called theists.  Other people take it as axiomatic that things just happen how they happen, that because the physical processes are the ultimate cause, observation of the physical universe is the only real way to gain knowledge, and so on.  These people are called atheists.

Furthermore, in the context of atheism's axioms, a virgin birth is nuts, or at least the absolute biggest fluke of probability ever.  In the context of theism's axioms, a virgin birth is nothing too weird, because physical laws aren't absolute.

My conclusion is, if you're going to criticize belief in a virgin birth, you have to take it all the way back to the start, and talk about why it is that you think theism's axioms have problems.  It's not enough to say, "I have a different set of axioms, and based on my set, what you believe is crazy."  You are really arguing that your axioms are better, but you can't establish that by talking about side issues; you need to talk about the axioms themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to have to differ with you on this one.  I would have to say that, by and large, most people haven&#8217;t thought in depth about the other viewpoint:  atheists don&#8217;t really understand religion, and religious people don&#8217;t really understand atheism.  Maybe this shouldn&#8217;t be that surprising, since most people&#8217;s views seem very obvious to them, and they don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth the time to investigate.</p>
<p>I myself have had the opportunity to look at both sides pretty thoroughly, though, since up until my early 30&#8217;s, I was a fairly devout Christian.  I was never the type, though, to accept things without question, so I have a few shelves of books on the subject of theology.  These days, however, I&#8217;ve decided Christianity is probably not factual, and I&#8217;m an agnostic with a definite leaning towards atheism.</p>
<p>But, I still don&#8217;t think theology is stupid.  (Note that I&#8217;m not saying there aren&#8217;t lots of religious people with ideas that are just indescribably stupid.  But then there are a lot of people who are convinced they&#8217;ve found a perpetual motion machine as well, and who use lots of sciency jargon, which doesn&#8217;t make science wrong.)</p>
<p>Anyway, my experience with theology is that when you sift the wheat from the chaff, there is actually some good thinking out there.  There is even some good philosophy.  I challenge anyone who thinks there is nothing to theology to read and really try to understand Martin Buber&#8217;s &#8220;I and Thou&#8221;.  It really gets to the heart of the axioms behind Christianity.  Well, not actually Christianity specifically since Buber was Jew if I recall correctly, but maybe Christianity too since they&#8217;re related.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s what it boils down to in my opinion:  axioms.  Some people take it as axiomatic that God created the universe, that every event from start to finish has a purpose, and so on.  These people are called theists.  Other people take it as axiomatic that things just happen how they happen, that because the physical processes are the ultimate cause, observation of the physical universe is the only real way to gain knowledge, and so on.  These people are called atheists.</p>
<p>Furthermore, in the context of atheism&#8217;s axioms, a virgin birth is nuts, or at least the absolute biggest fluke of probability ever.  In the context of theism&#8217;s axioms, a virgin birth is nothing too weird, because physical laws aren&#8217;t absolute.</p>
<p>My conclusion is, if you&#8217;re going to criticize belief in a virgin birth, you have to take it all the way back to the start, and talk about why it is that you think theism&#8217;s axioms have problems.  It&#8217;s not enough to say, &#8220;I have a different set of axioms, and based on my set, what you believe is crazy.&#8221;  You are really arguing that your axioms are better, but you can&#8217;t establish that by talking about side issues; you need to talk about the axioms themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: pic</title>
		<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>pic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>http://giavasan.diludovico.it/archivio/2006/03/26/rip-chef/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://giavasan.diludovico.it/archivio/2006/03/26/rip-chef/" rel="nofollow">http://giavasan.diludovico.it/archivio/2006/03/26/rip-chef/</a></p>
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		<title>By: giandrea</title>
		<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1329</link>
		<dc:creator>giandrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1329</guid>
		<description>Couldn't agree more, the problem is that in some places, including where I live, Italy, it's very much a taboo, if not illegal, to talk against religion in general; and the last events around the muslim world point in a direction that confuses tollerance with reverence. The fact is that our highest political figures should take a firm position in condemning violence against freedom of speech, but instead they are scared to death that they won't get votes in the next elections if any terrorist attack happens in Europe (see Spain), so they bow and confuse personal beliefs with laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t agree more, the problem is that in some places, including where I live, Italy, it&#8217;s very much a taboo, if not illegal, to talk against religion in general; and the last events around the muslim world point in a direction that confuses tollerance with reverence. The fact is that our highest political figures should take a firm position in condemning violence against freedom of speech, but instead they are scared to death that they won&#8217;t get votes in the next elections if any terrorist attack happens in Europe (see Spain), so they bow and confuse personal beliefs with laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Porter</title>
		<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1284</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Porter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1284</guid>
		<description>Catchy title, and in a way I agree.

It's obviously something I'm passionate about, so instead of a lengthy comment, I've posted my thoughts at &lt;a href="http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/brett/archives/001336_re_is_all_religion_moronic.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;my blog&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catchy title, and in a way I agree.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obviously something I&#8217;m passionate about, so instead of a lengthy comment, I&#8217;ve posted my thoughts at <a href="http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/brett/archives/001336_re_is_all_religion_moronic.html" rel="nofollow">my blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: CuRoi</title>
		<link>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1280</link>
		<dc:creator>CuRoi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://agylen.com/2006/03/15/is-all-religion-moronic/#comment-1280</guid>
		<description>"Ahh, but you will not understand unless you are a believer," says the blind man. 

What astounds me are not the masses swallowing religion, but those scattered intelligent (sometimes incredibly so) people with the hook on their lip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ahh, but you will not understand unless you are a believer,&#8221; says the blind man. </p>
<p>What astounds me are not the masses swallowing religion, but those scattered intelligent (sometimes incredibly so) people with the hook on their lip.</p>
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